Homeless College Students will be homeless slaves with massive debt

According to the Free Application for Federal Student Aid (FAFSA) reports, we have 58,000 homeless college students in America today.  And that number doesn’t account for those who choose not to report their cases.  This is a number that is 75 percent more than three years ago.homeless-student11

And then we hear things like this:  “These are people who get it,” said Kathleen O’Neill, who directs Single Stop USA for Massachusetts’ Bunker Hill Community College. The national nonprofit organization assists low-income families. “The way out of poverty is education and they are committed to doing whatever it is they need to do to get there.”  Are we sure about that?

On a related note we now have over $1 TRILLION dollars owed in student loan debt.  And I get notes like this every day. (Just got this one a few days ago)

“Dan, I’m a doctor and words cannot express how much I hate it. I hate feeling controlled by people with an entitlement mentality who don’t care if they suck the life out of me. I hate that my medical decision making is being controlled by government bureaucrats. I hate that this is a profession where you are regarded as weak for attending to normal body functions like eating and going to the bathroom. I hate that I have a target on my chest for lawsuits. I live pretty frugally but still have $280,000 in student loan debt at age 53. Plus the fact that I never got married or had kids. These things make my future very bleak, especially if I become to sick or frail to work and take care of myself.”

And we’re still being told the way out of poverty is education.  Unfortunately, our model defining “education” is broken.  Going to college is likely to lead directly into poverty. 

If someone can’t come up with any way to create income now – the chances of them being able to do that just because they got a piece of paper are pretty slim.  If a person can’t wash windows, mow yards, paint houses, deliver papers, do Amazon FBA, write a blog or have a little site on Etsy, they are probably going to be disappointed hoping someone will give them a job when they graduate.

When I went to The Ohio State University (yes, the National Football Championship school – go Buckeyes), Joanne and I lived in a little tiny trailer just off campus.  We were surrounded by other students and loved the experience.  I bought and sold old cars, mowed yards, and painted houses to cover all our expenses – including tuition and books. When I went back for my Masters degree we negotiated to live in an old house that I fixed up in exchange for rent.  Joanne made tailor-made clothes for hard-to-fit women to create a little extra income.  A few years later I started my doctoral program.  By then I was earning money as a coach and writer.  We did not incur any debt for any of those degree programs – and also did not expect any degree to significantly change my income.  The degrees didn’t change who I was as a person. 

Living frugally while in school is fine.  But getting a housing subsidy, food stamps, AND borrowing government backed student loans is not a reasonable plan.  I grieve for these homeless college students who are borrowing money in the hope that their future is going to change instantly when they have a “degree.”  Some studies show that 85 percent of the graduates in 2014 will return home because they can’t secure jobs that are in any way connected to their degrees. 

This is a massive problem. The marketplace demands marketable skills and useful contributions to business goals.  The homeless college students of today are likely to be the resentful, indentured slaves who are saddled with debt they cannot pay tomorrow. 

It’s time to stop believing that college is a guaranteed way out of homelessness and poverty.  A pleasing personality and skills that matter may require neither a degree nor debt.  I guess you can tell this is more than a pet peeve of mine.  It’s a national disaster that is leading us to a massive crash. 

Please leave your comments here.  Convince me I’m wrong in my anger about this.

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  • Steve Crawford

    I can’t convince you. You are totally correct on this. However, the brain pool that comes up with these plans thinks they have answer for everyone. Sadly, they are at the shallow end!

    My average pay for truck drivers is $50,000. Yet we struggle to find enough of them. It’s not pretty, it’s not glamorous, it’s not sexy. But we work, knowing that we can come back tomorrow. No degree required.

    • Steve – I’ve often mentioned to Joanne that I’d love to be a trucker. I love big machines and traveling together just seems like an appealing thing to do. Probably won’t at this point but I don’t understand why more guys don’t jump at the opportunity.

      • Steve Crawford

        I’m probably waxing sentimental, but there was a time when this industry was more attractive and appealing. As with so much of the industrialization of America, we surrender our lives and freedoms for false security. I love the challenges and rewards of my job, but it requires more effort and attention to get there.

        I think the appeal of trucking is the freedom of the open road. There probably is a little bit of “pioneer” in all of us.

        • Diana Hutchinson

          Steve, I have to share a story about my parents. My mom grew up in a rural area when the 3 career options for girls were teacher, secretary, or nurse. She chose nursing, and never enjoyed it. What she really wanted was the freedom and adventure of driving a truck! She loves fast cars and road trips. When my dad was still living, they used to joke that she would someday drive a truck and he would be the cook at the truck stop.

          • Steve Crawford

            That is cool. My mom worked at a truck stop in the 40’s, and dad was a driver. He stopped at the truck stop each night. They dated, fell in love, and trucking is in the family blood ever since.

            Stories are awesome.

            Did your mom ever leave nursing?

          • Diana Hutchinson

            Oh my goodness, I love how your parents met! How great to have that trucking story. My mom’s chapter after retiring from nursing is interesting, especially as it relates to this college discussion. She had always felt “less than” because she was a poor farm kid with a nursing degree (not a full 4-yr. college degree). When she retired from nursing, she enrolled in a community college and got a 4 yr. bachelor degree with honors in political science, just to prove to herself and others that she could do it. There was a part of her that needed the validation of a degree to feel smart, but she also enjoyed being around intellectual ideas, and blowing the college kids away with her 1950’s shorthand!

        • Oh I love your line – “we surrender our lives and freedoms for false security.”

  • Diana Hutchinson

    When I was a college student, I had no idea how to comprehend the amount of money that was involved for college expenses. I think that for many young students, the dollar amount is so abstract that they can’t relate to it or put it in a frame of reference. When it is so abstract, it is hard to imagine how paying off a large amount of debt is going to impact your life because it doesn’t seem “real” enough.

    I am excited about the increasing opportunities for skills-based learning offered online. Combining that with books and podcasts has allowed me to keep learning and building my skills. I would love to see more young people take advantage of these opportunities, but I fear that many of them are so used to being shepherded through their education that they don’t take the initiative to find out what’s available. I would also like to see employers recognize alternative ways of learning besides college, and realize that people who seek out their own education have shown motivation, drive, and self-discipline.

    • Diana – great points. And I think employers are making that shift. They are starting to recognize the value of specific course training people have through places like Udemy and Lynda.

    • Shawn Frey

      Diana, your comments are spot on. Initiative is the key. When I was a high school Jr. I signed up to take power mechanics because the building trades class got cancelled. All my buddies were in power mechanics. I could not grasp this class and began doing poorly. My teacher, Mr. Mixer sat down with and said, “Shawn, what do you enjoy?” “Computers”, I said. This was 1984 and our school did not offer any computer classes yet. Long story short, Mr. Mixer allowed me with his oversight to create the power mechanics semester tests on the TI computer in the computer room. I got an A on the assignment and thus past the class with a C-. I don’t know if a teacher today could do this or not but what I can tell you is without Mr. Mixer it’s entirely possible I might have been a high school drop out. There are a zillion ways today to “get educated” and a traditional college degree is only way.

  • Bob Wadsworth

    Dan, you are 100% correct and thank you for writing on this and I hope you keep writing about this as student loan debt is a disaster waiting in the wings for a political opportunity and economic disaster.

    I cringed when Obama came out and touted “free” community college education for all. And the reason for my cringing was three fold. One, the government cannot afford it but it is a nice warm fuzzy for politicians who want to “help the poor and middle class” get ahead. It will only make for political fodder during the 2016 election cycle once again fanning the flames of class and race. Two. When things are free for the taking, they lose value over time and will be abused. And three. Not everyone is destine to go to college nor should they. Many waste their time and money earning a degree that means absolutely nothing in the real world. You and Dave Ramsey talk and write about that all the time. We need more trades than college graduates these days and if the government promotes anything it should be the trades. It seems Mike Rowe of Dirty Jobs fame, is on an island all by himself promoting that.

    I do want to give a HUGE shout out to my 2 daughters currently attending Arizona State University. Not only do they work their tails off with school and jobs, they will both graduate in the next year and 2 years respectively DEBT FREE. Not only debt free but with money in the bank when they graduate!!! $1000’s in the bank that they themselves put in. My wife and I helped them set up both a Roth IRA as well as long term savings plans that they systematically put money into. They are by far the exception to the rule but wouldn’t it be nice that their situation was the rule and not the exception?!

    • Bob – way to turn the tide with the way your daughters are getting their “education.” Obviously, they’ll learning some important life lessons along with what college typically offers.

  • juli kuhl
  • Debbie Wilson

    Well said, Dan.

  • juli kuhl

    i just turned 71 and have only a couple hundred a month coming in from social security. no pension or savings [long story], so out of desperation started my own business. took about 6 yrs but i’m now making a profit. learned how to successfully run a small business while also learning [the hard way] how to downsize my lifestyle. cash flow management is rough but doable. also voraciously reading books, magazines and online business advice as well as how to deal with health issues so i can keep on working. it can be done!

    • Juli – I commend you on looking for a creative way to generate income – and hopefully be engaged in work that is meaningful and fulfilling. There are lots of options – be confident you can be successful and not dependent on any “guarantees.”

  • Patrick T. Altman

    Dan, I totally agree with you, Dave Ramsey, Seth Godin, Debbie Schlussel, and Rabbi Daniel Lapin. The student loan crisis is way out of control. Basically, students are paying to get themselves indoctrinated. Instead of getting a good education in the Bible or the Torah, students are manipulated into an Anti Capitalistic fervor starting early in grade school

    I now see former Catholic grade school students who have turned to paganism or atheism because they do not have a good sound understanding of Christianity or the Bible.

    • Patrick – yep, we lost sight of what an “education” really is.

    • carson

      To much stuff in college is pointless worthless knowledge that would be a bad deal even if it was free. I do accounting all the time with no degree in my own business and a family business. It is the language of business but i have always loved #’s. I love stuff like fpu,jack bogle vanguard indexing and warren buffett annual letters. When i go back to the university its to use the library and give them a copy of total money makeover!

  • Charlotte Hyatt

    Dear Dan, I wish what you are saying wasn’t true but…I am a living example that it is(:. I admire my nieces and nephews for getting scholarships to college but I want to tell them they are wasting their best working years. I was one of those who took out a bunch of loans to get my degree only to get the same job I could have gotten without those thousands of dollars. And since I was ‘last hired,’ when the ‘right-sizing’ came, I was one of the first to go. I am so depressed, my focus is not there and I cannot seem to get anything going for myself – now that I know a JOB is not the way to go. I’m a King’s Kid but am struggling right now so please pray for me!

    • Charlotte – will do. Just be confident you can find – or create – work that is meaningful, purposeful and profitable. Your options are not limited by whatever degree you have. Getting a JOB may be a legitimate part of your long term goal.

  • So true! I don’t think people realize school is just another business! Depending on the situation, sometimes getting a degree is just another way of postponing the decision making. BTW, I am trained as a root canal specialist and owned a very successful pracitce. But working full time as a dentist was just not as fun or challenging any more.

    • Pei – oh yes. If you’re “unemployed” that can create a negative impression. But no one will fault you for being in college – it’s a socially acceptable way to not have to deal with getting a job or earning a living.

      • Can’t say it better myself! Tough to hear but painfully true!

  • Sam Iam Espinoza

    I couldn’t agree more with this. I went to one of the top schools in this country for my masters degree. And I’m broke, pissed off and unemployed. EVery one keeps telling me that my education is the best thing to have happen to me, and to keep at it (in my field of study) and to become licensed and to specialize in something. Well, I still owe 65k in student loans, and for 14 years I have been paying my loans. I’m now 44, soon turning 45, and don’t see an end to it if I decide to stay in my field of study. I am beginning a new path, small baking business. That I see growing and prospering. Let’s see how I do in the following year. Wish me luck!

    • Sam – I have heard your story thousands of times. Man, that’s tough. What a hard reality to have to face. I’ve seen snippets about your new baking business and commend you on seeing some new opportunities. Having your own business opens the door to freedom and income that most traditional jobs never will. Make this your year to break out, kill the debt and create your own success.

  • Anna

    Dan, thank you for an insightful article. I can’t convince you that you’re wrong, because I think your points here are correct! I was blessed to finish school without debt, as I worked very hard to earn a full scholarship. I understand that many people don’t have that option. Nonetheless, I would encourage anyone thinking of pursuing higher education to cash-flow it. The freedom from school debt has been a huge benefit to me as I plan my future career path. Like one of the commenters below said, it’s hard to grasp just HOW much money you’re borrowing when you’re 18 and have never had to earn your living. Once out in the real world, it’s too late to go back and “un-borrow” the money. I hope this article makes a few people stop and think before chaining themselves to decades of debt.

    • Anna – congratulations on doing it the right way. At least now you have the freedom to choose without the constraints of having debt to pay.

  • Damon

    What’s more is there is no financial plan in place at all. today college is billed like the miracle elixirs of the 19 century. Quotation:

    “Of course we had no advertising courses in my school days…Once a man brought me from a great technical school their course in advertising and asked me how to improve it. When I read it I said: “Burn it. You have no right to occupy a young man’s most impressive years, most precious years, with rot like that. If he spends four years to learn such theories, he will spend a dozen years to unlearn them. Then he will be so far behind in the race that he will never attempt to catch up.”

    ~Claude Hopkins, 1927, “My Life In Advertising,” The man who invented the coupon.

    • Damon – oh my gosh. That’s harsh and probably totally accurate. So often things are being “taught” that have no relevance in the real workplace.

  • Timothy Gray

    I agree with your general points but it seems to me to be disconnected from homeless issues. When a person is homeless it is nearly impossible to get any job. Just by being ambitious enough to go through the enrollment and loan process helps your cause. And doing well (in school) while homeless can lead to employment. I speak, not in theory but from experience. I ended up dropping out for health reasons but I’d rather have the loans that I do than to still be Homeless.

    • I noticed nobody’s touched this comment but me. How did you eventually overcome your situation?

      • Timothy Gray

        Like many homeless I had no family near where I was staying.
        after relocating closer to family and old friends I was able to stay with on old friend so that I could get back on my feet. My relocation was funded by the stipend that I got from my student loans…

        • I’m glad you were able to overcome the situation.

      • Timothy Gray

        I relocated to be closer to family and was able to stay with a friend so that I could get back on my feet. My relocation was funded by the stipend from my student loan.

    • AlanDueck

      Sorry, but I’ll have to disagree, Timothy. Why would it be “nearly impossible” to get any job just because a person is homeless. I don’t doubt that it complicates things and makes it more difficult — I’m sure it has that effect on every aspect of life! But a resourceful person is not barred from employment simply for a lack of a suitable permanent address.

      And your suggestion that going through the enrollment and loan process signals “ambition” is a pretty low bar, friend. I’m glad you’re not homeless anymore — I hope that’s a sign that things are looking up in general — but I have a hard time seeing how debt and no degree has been an advantage that wouldn’t have been surpassed by the alternatives such as those Dan often recommends (e.g., a small service business).

      • Timothy Gray

        So how may homeless have you or the company that you work for hired?

        • AlanDueck

          I have no idea. Why does it matter?

          • Timothy Gray

            Because if being homeless is not a bar to employment then there should be quit a few employees(as a percentage) that are homeless or were at the time they were hiring. The fact is that a key quality that employers look for in an employee is stability. All else being equal the homeless person doesn’t get the job.
            Being homeless shouldn’t matter and it shouldn’t make getting a job nearly impossible but it does.

          • AlanDueck

            All else being equal, shouldn’t the job go to the person who shows greater stability? So being homeless, by your own definition should matter! Although I still doubt it does, because you don’t have anyway of knowing or proving that employers consider your housing status (i.e. being homeless). So, sorry, this is more blaming and victim mentality (whining) on your part.

          • Ashley Johnson

            Sorry but Tim is right. Minimum wage jobs get flooded with unskilled labor applications. They have plenty of people to choose from. The last person they would choose is someone with no place. The stigma alone in most cases disqualifies them from employment.

      • Timothy Gray

        Actually, yes not having an address is often a disqualifier for employment.

        • AlanDueck

          You may not have a permanent home address when you are homeless, but surely there’s an address of some sort you can use — a family member, good friend, maybe even a church or shelter.

          • Timothy Gray

            Would you let a family member or friend use your address yet not take them in? Sadly using a friend or family member’s address is rarely an option. As for shelters or drop in centers, most of the types of jobs that homeless people qualify for get flooded with applications from homeless people. They recognize the addresses and ignore those applications..

          • AlanDueck

            You’re reading more into my questions than I put there! Who said anything about using an address but not taking them in. And you have no evidence, beyond your experience and other anecdotes, for the rest of your claims. How exactly would you back up your claim (with hard evidence) that “most of the types of jobs homeless people qualify for get flooded with applications from homeless people” or that “they” (the hiring authorities) “recognize the addresses and ignore those applications.” I’m sure that happens more in your head than in reality.

            That’s the real issue that I have with the statements you’ve made so far — victim mentality. So many forces arrayed against you, discriminating against you simply for a lack of a permanent address. I don’t mean to be harsh, but it’s this victim mentality that prompted me to respond to your comment initially. That’s something you really should examine. Stop blaming others and making excuses. Make yourself valuable as a potential hire, and

            your address won’t make a difference.

  • I’m not going to try to reverse anyone position on this, but I have some questions.

    1. What degrees are these students going for that they haven’t developed the proper skills to get jobs?

    2. What about job that require a college degree to obtain the skills? 6 out of ten of the hardest jobs to fill (as of 2013) require college education. The other 3 may or may not require it, but certainly needs to have OTJ training. And if you are wanting to fact check me here is the link.

    http://news.yahoo.com/10-jobs-employers-cant-fill-111953358.html

    There are other jobs as well. If you want to be an accountant, you have to have a degree, Lawyer, you can’t self-learn anymore.

    3. What about jobs that are projected to have good growth. The area that I’m going into (software development) is projected to have a 15%-20% job growth into 2022. http://www.onetonline.org/link/summary/15-1133.00

    4. How many of these students are making the mistake of going to a school for prestige, rather than learning hard skills? I know someone who got a degree in economics from Augustana College and the tuition was around 40,000 a year. Now he’s not in dire straights and it did take him some time to find a where he’d be using his degree, but he is using it now, he works for a bank.

    5. What about people who know what they want and they aren’t going to mess around with partying, etc and they want to get done as fast as possible to keep up with the market (again software developers)?

    6. How many of these people fail to cultivate the necessary hard and soft skills needed to sell themselves into employment?

    7. What about those who are developing skills that could be used right away once learned? In my case once I master java and the other languages, and keep learning them I can start building applications that I can sell on the android market place. Boom, I have a business.

    Dan, and everyone else. (because what i’ve seen is mostly agreement) I’m respectfully disagreeing because I’m not under crushing debt, we still are able to make our rent and take care of other obligations. I’m working full time while I’m pursuing my degree and I know what I want to do with my life going forward and I’m not using school as a reason to procrastinate, and yes, I am judiciously utilizing student loans to achieve this end. I’m not pursuing something artsy, I utilize your methods to find work, and I preach them on my blog. In fact the DISC profile I bought from 48 Days about 3 years ago helped me decide on what I’m doing. And I do have a financial plan.

    I’m going to continue to preach the methods and principles outlined in 48 days. I live and die (by most of them).

    So tell me am I completely wrong? Am I going to end up homeless? Will my wife divorce me because of the decisions we made to stop procrastinating and pursue or careers with vigor? Not everyone’s story is the same nor should it bit.

    I realize this is a bit long, but I wanted to make a point. Still love what you’re doing, Dan. 😀

    • AlanDueck

      Dale, what Dan is challenging is the unthinking generalization that “education is the antidote to poverty.” It can be, for an ambitious, focused, determined, disciplined person such as you.

      Others, however, treat a college degree as if it is a magical, guaranteed ticket to a great job, wealth, and success. It may lead to those results, but only in the hands of the right person — the kind of person you describe in your post.

      Furthermore, he is challenging the idea that college is for everybody. Many people not only don’t NEED college (aside from the obvious examples you list), but won’t benefit from it, at least not directly.

      In other words, there are other effective ways out of poverty and on to prosperity, such as entrepreneurship and skilled trades, for example. College may be one way, but it is certainly not the only one. And in fact, and to the point, college is often a disastrous route that leads to greater poverty (in the form of loan debt).

      Regards,
      Alan

      • Alan, I appreciate the clarification. But it seems that Dan is condemning traditional education across the board.

        And I agree that successful entrepreneurship is the only way to wealth. Skilled trades, kinda doubtful about those because of their seasonal nature.

        The reason why I’m dissenting is that I’ve got a pleasing personality and I can sell myself effectively in an interview. The other reason is that I am utilizing student loans to complete my software development degree, and I’m not the unthinking individual that things the degree is professional salvation. (You pointed this out in your comments and I appreciate it.)

        And here’s another thing. I would do some of the non-traditional course work such as what is offered at Udemy. But I’ve been diligent in previewing jobs and beginning to contact potential employers. And guess what? They require a degree. Even for something that’s as ever changing as software development.

        • Shawn Frey

          Sorry, what it current method of earning income?

          • I’m not sure what you’re asking Shawn. If you’re asking me what my current method of earning income is I have a J.O.B. right now. I haven’t listed it on social media because of company social media policies.

          • Shawn Frey

            Sorry Dale, that was very rude of me. I apologize. What I meant to say is does your current employer offer any tuition reimbursement programs or are there any scholarship opportunities in you current career field for aspiring developers like yourself? Throughout my sales career (23 years) I have found myself surrounded with learning opportunities that my employer was very happy to pay for. To me it’s all about attitude and showing your employer the “cost benefit” of having a smarter you on the team. The only time I have seen this approach fail is if you are ready to move on from your current employment situation. However, if you want to stay and they like you and your work I have seen fantastic employer negotiations as it related to both college and non-college educational opportunities. Good luck to you in your endeavors.

          • Thanks Shawn. And I apologize if I sounded sharp in my response, I know SLs are kind of a hot button issue around here and I wasn’t sure what you were going for so again, I apologize.

            As to my current employer offering tuition opportunities, no they don’t. I’ve already inquired about it and they don’t unfortunately. That’s part of the reason why I’m trying to get on as an intern or a very junior developer in the hopes of cultivating a mentoring relationship. I just (today) got my first Java programs to work right (I’ve only been in the course about a week to give you perspective.)

            For now, its just about keeping the hunt going. I will keep negotiating with the employer in mind in the future. For now I’m just gonna keep grinding out code and hunting for work. Thank you for the well wishes!

    • Dale – hey I love your input on this. If everyone had your approach I wouldn’t have written this post. I am certainly not against traditional education across the board. I went to very traditional schools for my bachelors and masters studies and then choose Oxford for my doctoral studies. I loved the process of study – but I was doing it for my own personal growth and enrichment, not because I needed a job.

      You are absolutely right that if someone wants to be a doctor, nurse, attorney, architect, etc. they need a clear path of study. But so many people are coming out with degrees in history, theology, political science, mass communications, and even “university studies” that have no marketable application at all.

      And trust me – most companies say “degree required” only as a means of screening the thousands of candidates. I see them ignore that again and again if they encounter an applicant with a “pleasing personality” who can add value to what they’re doing.

      Thanks so much for your thoughtful input on this.

      • Dan,

        Its certainly an honor to have you reply. You confirmed my suspicions regarding what kind of degrees kids are coming out of college are getting, and its crazy.

        The challenge that I find myself running into is yes, I have a pleasing personality (at least I believe I do, and I’ve been told that I do), but how do I get into an app/software dev position while I’m still developing my skills? I know I can add value in other ways, but its not the employers responsibility to accommodate me while I’m developing my skills.

        As part of my plan of attack I am applying to different tech related firms while I’m completing my app dev degree. I’m also going to ramp up my networking efforts and putting various projects I’ve completed on my website. I’ll be completing my course in Java by March and I’m looking to snag a job as a junior developer while I’m completing the rest of it. Failing that I’ll keep hunting and start writing applications and selling them on the Android Marketplace as well as picking up freelance work.

        And of course, no passive job search for me. Intro, cover/resume, interview, and thank you letters will be the name of the game.

        I’m only extending this thread because I threw myself out there, and I respect you as a virtual mentor. As a result I want to demonstrate that I’m following your teachings even though I might be bending the rules just a bit.

        Again, Dan, thank you for replying. It is an honor to talk with a great man such as yourself! 😀

        Now, back to grinding out code.

  • Dan,

    Hi there.

    I, too, graduated from OSU and I am proud of our team. O-H!!

    While I did incur student loans at that time, I have been blessed and fortunate to pay them off at age 30.

    It is a disturbing state of affairs in our country. I also get FIRED up about it this next debt crisis. I have the privilege to lead FPU at my church. I also love passing out 48 Days books! I have discovered that it is often someone buying into society’s lies that “it takes money to make money” and they (formerly I) base on our goals and decisions on that belief system.

    I think about the verse in the Holy Bible that says that “Wisdom of man is foolishness to God [1 Corinthians 3:19 NLT].” It’s my hope and prayer that the great USA wakes up and faces the truth that blood, sweat, tears through hard work built this country and that is what it will take to maintain the great accomplishment of our forefathers including FREEDOM from debt, especially from learning institutions.

    Thanks for the post and all the encouragement.

    Brian

    • Brian – thanks for your comments and for being a 48 Days ambassador.

  • OneAmericanAmongMany

    One of the ironies here is that in the original article, a major hurdle these students face is “rising tuition costs.” Those rising tuition costs have been escalating thanks to the plethora of government-backed student loans. Back in the dinosaur days when I went to college, not ONE of my classmates – nor I – had student loan debt, and I went to a private college and hung out with preachers’ kids and missionaries kids. Yes, they got scholarship money, but we also managed to work during the summers to pay a big chunk of our college expenses. As a result of what amounted to a cash-based tuition system, pricing for the supply had to accommodate the ability to pay of the demand. Now, it’s assumed that students will borrow for an education regardless of the cost. Pricing for education goes up because it CAN, and the student (or the parents, who don’t want to be “humiliated” by not having a kid in college) mortgage their lives for it. Just like the drug problem, the solution to “massive student loan debt” has to start at the demand-level, with more students and parents just saying “no.”

    • You just nailed the key issue here. I remember when people didn’t buy a car they couldn’t pay for in cash. Now people assume it’s a given to always have a car payment. The ready availability of credit traps people into all kinds of stupid decisions. Incidentally I’ve never had a car payment either. Just can’t see the logic of it.

    • Julie Carr

      I totally agree! I have two children in high school and you are right on about the pressure parents feel about sending their kids to college. It is amazing the looks I get from school administrators and other parents when I tell them, “Nope, I really don’t think traditional college is an option for my kids.” It is almost as if they are thinking in their minds, “Well, then what is there?”
      It does begin with more parents saying “no” and having the courage to back their kids decisions to try and experiment with other options!

  • Julie Carr

    What a timely post, Dan. I have a 17 year old son who suffers from dyslexia and consequently, school has been a tedious and up hill climb for us all. I remember specifically a meeting with our School Counselor and Principal regarding academic issues (I am my son’s biggest and loudest advocate) and the Principal said, “He really better buckle down or he won’t be able to go to college”. Much to his surprise, I responded with, “Why would you assume that college is my son’s only option?” There was silence:)

    My son has an engaging personality, is an optimist, consistently takes leadership roles on sports teams and has a knack for welding and creating weight lifting equipment from scratch.

    I am forever amazed that far too many assume that college is the best or only option for children who are graduating from high school. My son has skills, talents and gifts that can enable him to start a business or contract his work out as a welder. There are many options for my son for him to engage his natural strengths that do not require paying for a four year degree.

    • Julie – oh my, I understand totally. Sounds like my son Jared. The schools “diagnosed” him as dyslexia, ADD, ADHD, bi-polar and all those other wonderful terms they hang on a child who doesn’t color inside the lines. We took him out of “school” in the 5th grade and took full responsibility for his education. He never went to college and just went on to be a world-changer. Today he gets requests to speak at the most prestigious colleges in the world. What a fun irony!

      • Julie Carr

        Dan, I love that story about your son Jared!! I had the awesome opportunity to meet both you and Jared at Kent’s boot camp in November. I read the book the two of you co-authored and immediately passed it on to my 20 year old “college” student daughter. Telling her it was a must read. I was inspired and both hopeful by the stories and journey.

        I have a 16 years old daughter who is an extremely talented artist and savvy business person. She started an online store, selling “resale” jeans that she makes into shorts and puts her art work on them. She literally has is an income from this, although small. She is a sophomore in high school and we have decided to home school her next year in an effort to expose her to more artistic opportunities. (she even designed her own business logo)

        How cool would it be to begin a movement for youth that encourages entrepreneurship. Enabling them to see beyond conformity and reach deep into their own creative souls that were gifted to them by God. Taking it a step further and equipping them with tools, resources and role models to make that a possibility.

        Jared is a great example! Nice work Mom and Dad:)

    • Jared Cline

      Good for you Julie! Honestly that principal will never understand. It’s sad because I want to say if it’s so simple, how about you go back and try to get a degree. Let’s see where that principal succeeds now.

      • Julie Carr

        Hi Jared,

        Yes. For sure! Update on my son, Noah from my previous post. He graduated last Friday from Northwest Lineman College with a 15 week certificate and 500 plus hours towards his apprenticeship. He was also the recipient of the Mike Rowe Work Ethic Scholarship.

        He FLOURISHED at Lineman school and is currently looking at a wide open career field where he can expect to earn close to six figures doing what he’s gifted and talented at.

        My advice to young kids is to KNOW YOURSELF, listen to your heart, surround yourself with people who lovingly support your goals and are loving honest with you.

  • Ron Ryan

    Thanks for the great post. I graduated from the University of Alabama in 1970 with a degree in marketing. College loans, scholarships, and grants were practically non-existent when I enrolled and while I was in school. So, I worked in cotton fields through high school to save money for college. A few of my high school friends and I worked many odd jobs to have additional money. I got a job while in college working for the school. I never made as much as $2.00 per hour in that job.

    When I graduated I owed no student loans. My parents had invested less than $300 in my entire education. I even bought my own car and paid for it while in college. My dad did co-sign on the car(I don’t advise this) but never had to make a payment.

    My entire cost of room, board, tuition, books, etc. was $1,100 the first year. No frills but all paid for by me. Interestingly, only the year before I entered college what was to become known as the Pell Grant was signed into law as part of the Higher Education Act of 1965. It was part of LBJ’s Great Society legislation. The Great Society legislation was the beginning of change which has since snowballed. Although there have been many really good aspects of the laws enacted, especially the civil rights laws, most have had a negative, harmful effect on people who are the recipients of the largess of the federal government.

    My college degree gave me a lot of confidence. It was hard work and I felt good of the achievement. However, the important lessons young people should learn are generally not taught in classrooms: hustle, accepting responsibility when things go wrong, looking for opportunities to add value/start a business, learning social skills and how to deal with people, the importance of integrity in the marketplace, keeping one’s promises, the bondage of debt with its subsequent limitation of freedom. Sorry for the long post. This subject is such a frustrating thing to witness over the decades.

    • Ron – I love your overview of what is really important. And it seems “life” is the best place to learn those characteristics. I graduated from The Ohio State University in 1969 – so we definitely experienced the same specifics. I can’t remember what my tuition was – but I looked at it like any other expense – if I had the money to pay it I could choose to go, if I didn’t I needed to get out and clean out some more chicken coops. Never did I consider it a smart option to borrow the money.

    • Jared Cline

      I will always have trouble understanding how going into college in the 70s was different than now. To have all your expenses for the first year as $1,100 is not the same when compared at $7 an hour and $25,000 a year for tuition, not including, room, books, etc. I had to go to college to learn that you get your experience from the real world, and every single day I wish I could change it because I’m in the field i studied which is video production, but I could have done that without a degree. Not what I was told growing up.

  • Shawn Frey

    College is big business pure and simple. The entire industry has led people to believe good grades = good college = good job. Maybe in the past, but I seriously doubt it in the future. As someone who started work before graduating high school and couldn’t wait to never set foot in another book learning class room I’ve done petty well. 0 college debt and will make 6 figures again in 2015. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve got a very expensive education, I just didn’t have to pay for it. My employers did because I was willing to work, take calculated risks, make mistakes that didn’t bet the farm and learn from them. As someone who barley graduated high school I get a real kick out of being in meetings when everyone has a degree but most hate their jobs. I used to feel inferior to these folks, now I feel pretty smart. I love my work, am good at it and can show anyone how to do the same…. but you’ve got to get up and get moving. In my view most people have a habit/motivation problem. Sorry no college degree will be solving this issue anytime soon.

    • Shawn – you are so right – “habit/motivation” is more critical than “degree.”

  • Edward

    Dan I wholeheartedly agree with your article. College is not now nor has it ever been the SAVE ALL, BE ALL answer. A person must look inside themselves in their early teen years and decide for themselves what they truly desire to do and pursue that with all their passion!!For at least 15 years now, I whom have no college degree, have worked right alongside multiple amounts of people with degrees as high as Masters, and make more money than they. I am seeing more and more that employers are looking for and needing persons with some skills, not just a piece of paper that says they took the time to “earn” a degree. I often have to ask, what price did they pay to “earn” their degree. Unfortunately, way too high of a price. We are successful when we pursue our God given talents and desires, not only financially, but in every other way. Keep sharing the message sir!!!!!!!!!

    • Edward – sounds like you have a healthy perspective on this. Thanks for your comments.

  • Kate

    Not going to lie, reading this freaked me out. As an 18 year old I’m being pushed to go to med school and the last thing I want is to end up like the doctor Dan is quoting here. I desperately want to become a movie director or and actor, or a writer, or anything where I won’t be shoved into a cubical and told I can come out when we cure cancer! But what are my options? I have to go to college, I want to go to college. But my parents say an art degree might as well be no degree. It looks like I’m either going to starve to death as being a creative soul God put on the Earth to tell story, or I’m going to have a “safe” job and have the life sucked out of me. What on Earth are my friends and I walking into?

    • Kate – I know you’re young but you have to “see” your life 10 years from now. If being in a cubicle or trying to cure cancer is not something you could see yourself loving, then by all means do not get trapped in the expectations of those around you. I know doctors that are making $60,000 a year and artists that are making $300,000. Don’t get sucked into the generalities around this. You’re looking for a very individualized path that embraces what you know about yourself. You don’t need to starve as a creative soul. If that’s how you’re wired, it’s your BEST option for thriving spiritually and financially.

  • Hiram M.

    Nice article, you are correct in your analysis.

    There seems to be a major disconnect with the purpose of going to college. It should be about getting a better job than you could have without going. If your college (and/or major) is not going to provide the opportunity to get that better job than a high school diploma or technical school training don’t do it.

    As the parent of two college students, starting around age 13 with my kids any discussion about school went like this:

    Why did you go to kindergarten? Answer – to get ready for elementary school
    Why did you go to elementary school? – to get ready for middle school
    Why did you go to middle school? – to get ready for high school
    I then changed it up and asked why do you want to make good grades in high school? – to get into the best college I can afford
    Why do want to go to college? – to get a good job

    If either had said they didn’t want to go to college, I was ready with what sounds better military or welding or landscaping as I would be just as supportive and greatly appreciate them not potentially wasting resources.

    Finally, I never had to ask what major will help you get a good job as they already understood the purpose of college when the selected majors.

    Thanks all of your articles!

    • Hiram – this is getting trickier all the time. Some students will start college today with their eye on a particular job only to discover that job is obsolete before they graduate. Better see it as a broader process of learning and preparation than just to secure a job.

    • Jared Cline

      Where does it say that not going to college only gives you the options of military, welding or landscaping? This is what the older generation is not understanding. You CAN get jobs in many different fields without a college degree. Don’t pigeonhole your kids to think that if they don’t go to college they have 2-3 options because that is not how it is at all anymore, and that mindset is exactly what put me into a really tough position.

  • Brianna C.

    Dan,

    I agree with you that many college students are graduating with massive student loans and limited job prospects. I believe the issue, however, is much more complicated than a college system built on student loans.

    Before delving into my thoughts, let me share my personal story so my perspective is clearer. I am a 23-year-old who graduated last January with a four-year degree from a private college. In middle school, I knew what field I felt passionate about. Research showed it required a college degree. So at age 12, I started working and saving money for college. I also studied hard in high school to receive academic scholarships and took CLEP tests to eliminate an entire semester of college, putting me down to seven rather than the traditional eight semesters. That all being said, I graduated college with around $6,700 in student debt. Through sacrifice and strategic planning, I was able to pay off that entire amount in less than four months, two days before my classmates walked at graduation. A year later I am financially established and still employed at the job I started three days after finishing school. I absolutely love my job and am fortunate to work in my desired field.

    Here is where I feel many of peers are going wrong. They ONLY go to college. College was great, and I would go again if I were to go back in time. My education was a valuable experience which has helped me tremendously in my career. But I didn’t get a job because I went to college. I networked. Starting in high school, I would contact people working in my desired field and ask to shadow them for a day. I gained valuable insight and advice through those visits. I also volunteered extensively. I continued this practice into college, eventually landing several paid internships, one of which led to my current job. Furthermore, I didn’t wait for companies to post that they were hiring. I found businesses I was impressed by and researched them heavily. I would then contact them with a proposal for hiring me. I would tell them of my experiences, goals and what I thought I could bring to the business. My last three internships and my current job were a result of this habit.

    Colleges tend to sell a degree as a product. Ethics in college admissions is a huge issue, but I will save that discussion for another time. An eighteen-year-old believes them when they say a degree guarantees a job upon graduation. That’s not true. It is only one piece of a larger puzzle. First off, not every job requires a degree. Students should research their desired field to see what type of education, whether college or otherwise, is required. Next, a degree should never stand alone. People who choose to attend college must be sure to obtain relevant experience before graduating so they will appeal to employers in a competitive job market. Money is another factor to consider. College is expensive, but it is possible to graduate with little to no debt IF you are willing to plan and sacrifice.

    That being said, I don’t believe college itself to be the issue. The main problem is the misconception that a degree alone guarantees a career and that everyone should attend college, taking out large loans to do so. The system is corrupt, but students are also responsible to find the best means of pursuing their dream jobs. It can be done.

    • Brianna – wow, great perspective. You did it right and have a very mature understanding of the issues. Thanks so much for your comments.

      • Jared Cline

        What about those of us that have a job in our field, that work side jobs, and discovered that we can never actually make enough money to pay off the debt. I have to sleep on my parents couch and starve to make payments. People like me were told by everyone I know that in order to be successful you must go to college, that you must take out $100,000 in student loans. Brianna, I’m happy you knew what you wanted to do at age 12, but not that many people are fortunate to have been taught that you should start working young and saving. With a salary of around $40,000 a year I feel completely stuck, and like the only way out is homelessness. I have worked incredibly hard since starting college 7 years ago, and have been working full time for the last 3, but I don’t see any way to position myself to get out of this black hole. In reality I should have not listened to them, now I resent everyone I use to look up too, and believe that going to college set me up for failure. I should have focused on finding work in the beginning, and self taught myself instead.

        • Jared – yep, that’s tough to discover that people you trusted gave you bad advice. I grew up as a farm kid and went to college as a way to broaden my options – but I worked and lived very simply and never borrowed any money. And then I’ve never had a “job.” Because of that rich farm experience I’ve always just seen ways to make money by providing things people need. I saw college as an organized method of personal growth but never as a path to a better job. I’d encourage you to start looking for unique talents you have that could be focused into generating income in creative ways.

    • Shawn Frey

      Very well done. If you have the time you should consider sharing your story to a larger audience. Perhaps Mr. Miller could do a tele-seminars in which he interviews recent college grads geared toward incoming college freshman. I’d pay for that. Thanks again for your post.

  • Brad W

    All, Bee Moved has developed a Guide Kit to address these concerns for aspiring college students. The product, Bee Debt Free: A Prevention Guide to College Debt, will be launched on Kickstarter January 23rd, 2015. See Beemovedllc.wordpress.com for more information!

  • Joanne Miller

    Going to college is a chance to grow up and explore possibilities and learn independence and a host of other things besides just going to classes. However, if a student is going because of expectation and pressure, that is a wrong motive. If a student is going because he/she expects it will provide him with a better job, that, too can be a wrong motive. Because getting a better job can often be obtained without going to college and is heavily weighted on character and enthusiasm. And if a student is going to college totally on loans, he/she is headed for a rude awakening upon graduation. It is a travesty what banks and colleges are doing to put young, naive kids into massive debt. And the stress produced after graduation and it comes pay-back time, is monumental. My pet peeve is the parental/school/teacher expectation that college is for ALL high school graduates. I think there should be a mandatory one to two year time of working and exploring options before a child even thinks of seeking higher education. In the meantime, that child can sock away money for their future and be proud of not incurring debt but working hard to make a better life for him/herself.

    • Well said. I love that we were able to have fun teaching our kids “character and enthusiasm.” Now that they are all adults we still see how important those characteristics are in their success.

    • Shawn Frey

      Very well put Mrs. Miller. College is NOT for all high school graduates. Unfortunately one has to wonder if our public schools are mere factories for producing college at any price, debt for a life-time college freshman? If parents don’t take an active role in teaching their kids the value of hard-work, paying their bills and being a part of the community who will? I talk to A LOT of college kids (still in school) in the course of my work and sadly many of them are deep in the hole and many have no idea what to do when they graduate. I know another gentlemen that just started paying his student loans… at 50 years of age! Don’t get me wrong, we have a daughter that will be an incoming college freshman in the Fall. She will more than likely graduate with a technical degree in 2-years and more than likely have a student loan. However, she’s interning in her career field now, taking professional courses through a freelancer, and volunteering in her community. She has a part-time job, 3.96 GPA and is the rhythm squad dance captain. She drives a paid for jet-black, pink pin-stripped 02′ Mustang that she paid half for (401 Dave).

      Helping our kids to a responsible career path is a parents job. Unfortunately some people think it’s the governments and now we see where that has gotten us. Kids graduating and saddled with a mountain of debt and NO hope of re-payment. Twenty-somethings finally waking up from their “college experience” only to realize they will be living a nightmare of extreme anxiety. Sadly, if you try to speak up about this in most circles you are labeled a trouble-maker, idiot or other expletive. That’s the power of marketing and advertising. And that’s where we are today… disability is on the rise, true unemployment is through the roof and everyone is whining (wasting time) about their life on social media when things don’t go their way. The “angry” bug has bit our country and until people begin accepting responsibility for THEIR actions this bug will continue to flourish and infect peoples lives.

  • Hi Dan, great article! You know where I stand on this, we really need to get to the solutions end of this problem. Thanks for the solid info as always!

  • OneAmericanAmongMany

    The ultimate punctuation mark to this discussion: I wrote a resume this week for a man who has a bachelor’s degree in History and a Masters in Special Education from a private college in upstate NY. His career goal? To work as a general laborer with the county’s Parks & Rec department. Why? It pays better, there’s minimal “office politics” and he ENJOYS working outdoors. He did paving and contracting work part-time during college, helped his employer grow their business with a gift for sales and the ability to write coherent proposals but failed to recognize any of those as “signs” and continued to spend money (or go into debt) for an “education.” I’m glad he finally grew up and is finally comfortable in his own skin!

    • Stump_Fiddle

      Really?? A guy with a Master’s in Education needed someone else to write his resume?? Who ties his shoes for him?

      • OneAmericanAmongMany

        Resume writing is as much an art and science as is any marketing copy. It’s not so much that he needed support in plunking some words onto a piece of paper as he did someone who could frame his skills and assets in a way that made him more marketable.

        • Shawn Frey

          This is a good example of mindless college being marketed to the masses and endless student loans being gobbled up for the taking.

        • Stump_Fiddle

          I suppose that could be really helpful. Thanks for sharing the flip-side.

          • OneAmericanAmongMany

            One of my most challenging resume clients, but one for whom I produced some significant positive results, was done for a female neurobiologist working with the CDC who wanted to go into private-sector research. Clearly, her academic credentials AND her IQ were stratospheric – significantly moreso than mine! However, both her resume and her cover letters failed to connect on a human level, and neither really exhibited her as more than a mere lab-rat. I was able to position her as a heavy-hitting project lead, capable of understanding what a budget is and who was still able to obtain quantifiable results. It was a major shift in focus and she got the results she wanted from it.

  • Cindy

    My husband and I live this everyday and so do our three smart, hard working college educated grown children. They went to college before the recession and got out right after. We are learning a lot of good life lessons as we walk this path of payback together, but it is not a path we would have chosen if we had known all we know now.

    • Cindy,
      Just consider those college educations as part of the growing up, maturing process. Then your children can take a fresh look at what their unique talents and passions are now, and position themselves for opportunities that fit.

      • Cindy

        Thank you for this regenerative view! Hearing life-giving words from a respected brother is good medicine.

  • Ms. O’Neill is incorrect… education is not the way out of poverty. Getting the right kind of education and using it effectively is. (And that education isn’t necessarily achieved in 128 semester-hours or school loans).

    • Mike – so true. The key here is what is “education?” Book knowledge alone doesn’t give a person much of an advantage. Thanks for your input.

  • Dan, I had no direction regarding higher education so my college decision was a complete crap shoot. I ended up going to a small Christian liberal arts school and graduating with a business degree and $27k in student loans. (I loaded up and finished in 3 years because I knew I couldn’t afford more debt). The business education was not good and the career services were near non-existent. I hated my low-paying cubicle job for the next 2 years. If it had not been for a chance to join the Army Reserves, my financial situation would be much worse than today. The USAR helped me pay back my student loans and give me $ to get a master’s degree – and with that credential, I’ve been able to work in a new field I love where I actually do some of the same things you do, but in a corporate environment (even though I still have a cubicle). If I had it all to do over again, I would have gone to a larger public school that cost much less, had a better/broader program, bigger network and more access to career services. College debt really hurts.

  • Steven Noel

    Hi All,

    Though I’ve not been homeless, I can speak to the perils of just signing that dotted line of the student loan acceptance form and gleefully saying “I’ll take the most you’ll give me.” My wife and I went to college and she got an M.A. in Psychology and I got a Ph.D. in Experimental Psychology (research guy). As Dave Ramsey would say, we were “looking good, but broke.”

    When it was all said and done, my wife and I borrowed…wait for it… $183,000 total for school. Yeah, I didn’t mess that up. Those 000s all belong there. To say the least, we were massively stupid when it came to borrowing this money and it’s no one’s fault, but our own. We signed that dotted line and we said “give us all the money we can borrow.” No one made us do that. We chose this fate, and with that I have a comeback story. I don’t quit.

    On May 8th, 2011, I was searching iTunes for music podcasts when I came across Dave Ramsey’s podcast. The student was ready and the teacher appeared, as they say. Since that time 44 months ago, my wife and I have paid back $235,086.18 (including regular payments and interest). This also includes two car loans from vehicles we purchased brand new right after we were done with school.

    We make pretty decent money these days, but this has not been easy. We cut lifestyle to nothing, got rid of cable, took showers at our gym, cut the grocery budget to $40 per week (just increased it back to $100 last September because we were starving), and have done next to nothing! A coffee date at Panera Bread was considered a luxury date.

    Yes, these four years have not been easy and I wouldn’t advise anyone to follow in our footsteps. I know, I know. We brought this on ourselves and we were stupid. Totally agree. Since I can’t change the past though, all I can do is put this out there for others to have a good laugh at and hopefully learn from before they make the same mistake when deciding what path to take.

    On a positive note, this changed us. Since that time, I came across Dave Ramsey, Dan Miller, Michael Hyatt, John Maxwell, Joel Osteen, John Lee Dumas, Pat Flynn, Andrew Warner, and Jaime Tardy to name a few. Their inspiring words have not only kept me going but lit a fire in me to pursue entrepreneurial adventures.

    I have listened to every Dave Ramsey show since May 9th, 2011, and even listen to the repeats when he is out of town because it inspires me to keep going. The other podcasts also keep me going for the 4:30am workouts. I have my “Mondays with Dan” (Miller) session every Monday morning while working out. I have also read 176 non-fiction books based on recommendations from Dave Ramsey, Dan Miller, and others. All “free” from the library, of course.

    All of this to say, we are close. I just scheduled another $4,000 payment for our loan today and we have only $6,000 left until we cross that finish line. As you can imagine, this has been a marathon and quite emotional, but thanks to people like Dan, we keep putting one foot in front of the other as we right our wrongs and become better people.

    For those in a similar situation, keep fighting. Find the good that can come from this experience and “fail forward,” as John Maxwell says.

    Thanks for your time,

    -Steven

  • Darwar

    There might be no problem if those students were just able to find a job after they graduate in order for them to pay their debts. They are just interested to take on this kind of matter in order for them to support their education and experience a new life that awaits for them in the future. Sometimes, their effort might not seem to be enough in successfully achieving the core knowledge in school that they should have.

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  • scottandrewhutchins

    I have a master’s degree and live in a homeless shelter. I have a blog. I’ve written five screenplays, three stage plays, and a novel. None of this is making me any money, and I’m medically limited to a desk job, and I had done some of this before I even finished my bachelor’s. The problem is a 108:1 application to job interview ratio, which is entirely the fault of others.

    Read Peter Cappelli. You’re complaining about the victims instead of the perpetrators.

    • Scott – I’m all ears. Unemployment is at a historic low. Companies are desperate for competent people.
      Please tell me more – who are the perpetrators in this scenario?

      • Nate

        Unemployment is not at a historic low. Larry Summers and other economists have been researching why so many prime age males are not working. This is worldwide not just America. The EU unemployment rate is 7.6% yet youth unemployment is many multiples of that. Minimum wage jobs are not enough to get an apartment. Judging by your photo, the jobs you worked probably paid for a lot more back then, than they do now. The problem is getting entry level jobs, their is plenty of demand for mid and senior level positions.

  • Anarchy Softworks

    let’s burn down the debt slave factories and guillotine the wealthy one-by-one.

  • Unapologetic Anal Destroyer

    Going to college is the dumbest thing one can do in the modern age. There is internet, all that money could have been invested to start your own business or something. Its truly sad.